posted 12-27-2006 06:20 PM            

Thanks

Tony O'Neill

posted 12-27-2006 06:53 PM            

as a practitioner, not a doctor or researcher, I would think there is no "real" reason to think pregnancy would truly effect the results of an exam. But, I would NEVER knowingly test a pregnant examinee simply for liability issues. She loses the baby; you lose your house. I'm not a gambler with the American civil courts system...

posted 12-28-2006 10:31 AM         

There is actually some unfavorable case law in California for examiners who refuse to test pregnant LE applicants. It has become a discrimination issue and must be handled carefully!

I, like Jim, am not a doctor or researcher so maybe we can get one to ring on this.

I personally believe that when you test a pregnant female, you may encounter problems with the lower pneumo. The baby's kicking or other movement may also present a problem. My daughter also recently gave birth and I know that her hormones and emotions were off the chart for a while! Like Jim, I agree that you should not open yourself up to a civil suit. Just about any criminal case or job applicant can wait a few months until the pregnancy is complete.

posted 12-28-2006 05:19 PM            

Which of these subjects is pregnant?
http://www.raymondnelson.us/qc/pregnancytest.html

Answer correctly and win a prize...

for security

user:polyguest
password:torquemada

r

------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)

posted 12-28-2006 07:29 PM         

The HR is high and there is a double shot on the GSR at every question.

posted 12-28-2006 07:45 PM            

I'll post the pregnancy test results after I've heard from a few more people.

I think its very interesting to note what features we see in these charts.

Answer now to win an all-expense-paid overnight trip to the Denver International Airport.

But wait, if you answer before midnight, we'll throw in a free extended sight-seeing tour of some undeveloped snow-drifted farmland surrounding Federico Pena Boulevard.

r

------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)

posted 12-29-2006 02:42 PM            

This, due to the elevated BP and shallow respitory. I can't account for the double GSR as anything other than examinee movement (possible CM's), since the baby would not know to kick when the mother is answering a question... Am I right, huh, common, tell me, I'd dying here... tell me, am I right?? LOL

Jim

posted 12-30-2006 03:01 AM         

Would be interested in additional information on each subject when you reveal the 'identity' of the pregnant woman. I would be interested in knowing (for each polygram) (1) each examinee's age (and sex if all three are not women); (2) smoker\non-smoker;and (3) any reported heart issues (murmurs, prolapse, etc) and (4) number of days pregnant (I'm assuming she is somewhere within the latter part of the first trimester)

After viewing the charts,I'm with Toneill with the pregnant woman being represented on chart 2. I'm predominately basing my opinion on the lower pneumo being mildly shallower in depth as compared to the upper pneumo; it seems logical to me the gastrointestinal tract plus the fetus may inhibit full range movement of the diaphram, forcing her to be more of a chest breather. Secondly, although very difficult to visually discern with any comfortable level of confidence, there does 'seem' to be a double dicrotic notch 'at times' in the cardio.

Chart 1: I see increased heart rate as well others who have commented with general nervous tension, and some movement artifacts. The dual EDR'responses, I see as being unusual,but not attributed by the fetus in this case. I tend to be more suspicious of an unidentified countermeasure; however a fetus 'kick' may very well cause the pregnant mother to 'orient' to the kick and possible related discomfort- causing an EDR to occur. However I don't see it as being so uniform as represented in chart 1 by the dual responses. Chart 1 C3- shows movement in the cardio- with an EDR immediately following. I see this however as a potential countermeasure effort. Possibly the first EDR response is the countermeasure effort- and the secondary response is the examinees concern with the effectiveness of the countermeasure being employed.

Chart 3: I see nothing 'out of the norm" to cause suspicion of a pregnancy or countermeasures.

We anxiously await your answer to collect our prize or receive the dufis award.

posted 12-30-2006 10:09 AM            

I point that out as it's an odd DoDPI scoring problem. When scoring the cardio and EDA, they use the "Something verses Nothing" principle, which means if you have no reaction in one question, but a reaction in the other, you assign a score based on chart divisions. The problem is that the number of chart divisions will depend on where the examiner decides to set his sensitivity. In other words, I could have a reaction that is 1.9 charts divisions in amplitude (a +/-1), but had I used a sensitivity of 2.5 instead of 2.3, for example, I would have had a +/-2 instead.

posted 12-30-2006 11:24 AM         

True- we don't know what the sensitivity levels were set at for the upper or lower pneumos in chart 2;- and whether or not it was optimately set; for all we know it could have been set at 10 SU, as opposed to 2 SU in either channel.

We simply don't have enough information- and even if we did, I'm not convinced a defensible position could be undertaken 'to show proof' of pregancy based on these 3 charts alone. I was just looking for any 'differences' between the charts which were provided that 'could be' related to pregnancy.

posted 12-30-2006 12:27 PM            

I think it's interesting to note the amount of hormones raging in a woman's body at that time. If someone were to present on all those hormones via pill or injection, how many of us would refuse to test?

Heart and Blood Flow: During pregnancy, the woman's heart must work harder because as the fetus grows, the heart must pump more blood to the uterus. By the end of pregnancy, the uterus is receiving one fifth of the woman's blood supply. During pregnancy, the amount of blood pumped by the heart (cardiac output) increases by 30 to 50%. As cardiac output increases, the heart rate at rest speeds up from a normal prepregnancy rate of about 70 beats per minute to 80 or 90 beats per minute. During exercise, cardiac output and heart rate increase more when a woman is pregnant than when she is not. During labor, cardiac output increases by an additional 10%. After delivery, cardiac output decreases rapidly at first, then more slowly. It returns to the prepregnancy level about 6 weeks after delivery.

Certain heart murmurs and irregularities in heart rhythm may appear because the heart is working harder. Sometimes a pregnant woman may feel these irregularities. Such changes are normal during pregnancy. However, certain abnormal heart rhythms, which occur more often in pregnant women, may require treatment.

Blood pressure usually decreases during the 2nd trimester but may return to a normal prepregnancy level in the 3rd trimester.

The volume of blood increases by 50% during pregnancy. The amount of fluid in the blood increases more than the number of red blood cells (which carry oxygen). The result is mild anemia, which is normal. For reasons not clearly understood, the number of white blood cells (which fight infection) increases slightly during pregnancy and markedly during labor and the first few days after delivery.

The enlarging uterus interferes with the return of blood from the legs and the pelvic area to the heart. As a result, swelling (edema) is common, especially in the legs. Varicose veins commonly develop in the legs and in the area around the vaginal opening (vulva), sometimes causing discomfort. Clothing that is loose around the waist and legs is more comfortable and does not restrict blood flow. Wearing elastic support hose, resting frequently with the legs elevated, or lying on the left side usually reduces leg swelling and may ease the discomfort caused by varicose veins. Varicose veins may disappear after delivery.

Reproductive Tract: By 12 weeks of pregnancy, the enlarging uterus may cause the woman's abdomen to protrude slightly. The uterus continues to enlarge throughout pregnancy. The enlarging uterus extends to the level of the navel by 20 weeks and to the lower edge of the rib cage by 36 weeks.

Respiratory Tract: The increased production of the hormone progesterone signals the brain to lower the level of carbon dioxide in the blood. As a result, a pregnant woman breathes faster and more deeply to exhale more carbon dioxide and keep the carbon dioxide level low. The circumference of the woman's chest enlarges slightly.

Virtually every pregnant woman becomes somewhat more out of breath when she exerts herself, especially toward the end of pregnancy. During exercise, the breathing rate increases more when a woman is pregnant than when she is not.

Because more blood is being pumped, the lining of the airways receives more blood and swells somewhat, narrowing the airways. As a result, the nose occasionally feels stuffy, and the eustachian tubes (which connect the middle ear and back of the nose) may become blocked. The tone and quality of the woman's voice may change slightly.

Hormones: Pregnancy affects virtually all hormones in the body, mostly because of the effects of hormones produced by the placenta. For example, the placenta produces a hormone that stimulates the woman's thyroid gland to become more active and produce larger amounts of thyroid hormones. When the thyroid gland becomes more active, the heart may beat faster, causing the woman to become aware of her heartbeat (have palpitations). Perspiration may increase, mood swings may occur, and the thyroid gland may enlarge. The disorder hyperthyroidism, in which the thyroid gland is truly overactive, develops in fewer than 1% of pregnancies.

Levels of estrogen and progesterone increase early in pregnancy because human chorionic gonadotropin, the main hormone the placenta produces, stimulates the ovaries to continuously produce them. After 9 to 10 weeks of pregnancy, the placenta itself produces large amounts of estrogen and progesterone. Estrogen and progesterone help maintain the pregnancy.

posted 01-02-2007 01:53 PM            

Joking (and trolling) aside, you can see how difficult it is to see anything in these charts.

Here is the answer that I've emailed those brave examiners who've dared commit themselves to an answer (or guess).

-----------

Subject 1 had just given birth. Subjects 2 and 3 were pregnant at the time
of the exam.

Subject 1 hid her pregnancy from her treatment group for over seven
months - before the therapist asked why her clothes were getting bigger.

Subject 2 didn't know she was pregnant at the time of the test, and learned of the pregnancy about three or four weeks later. However, I don't think there is a second dichrotic notch from a embryonic stage of pregnancy.

Subject 3 was really pregnant - like 8+ months - and expressed the child
was kicking during the test. I tested her with her doctor's approval.

-----------

This is hardly scientific, but we could use a binomial test to determine the significance of our results.

Barry: gong

Ted: bzzt.

Tony: ding-ding-ding (extra points for the troll on the second dichrotic notch - that was good)

and

Bob: ding-ding-ding (points deducted for thew assertive statement against the 8-month subject 3)

So, that's 2 out of 4 trials, or .5

Except that I made it easier than that, because two out of three subjects were pregnant - meaning that chance odds are .667 or so.

So our binomial test results with our figure of .5, with N=4 and chance at .667 =

.296

Meaning that polygraph examiners can predict pregnancy at rates worse than chance, though not at statistically significant levels.

Don't quit your day jobs people - we can't yet replace pregnancy tests with the polygraph.

Peace,

r

------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)

posted 01-02-2007 03:11 PM            

I missed Bill's (correct) answer while I was busy committing math errors.

3 out of 5 with chance at .667

is .329

which is not statistically significant.

I think if there is a message is all this foolery, its that common sense should prevail.

Stick to your P&P.

Have well founded P&P

Don't assume we know more than we do.

Get a doctor's approval.

Normal, uncomplicated pregnancies are probably no cause for concern (its been happening for years).

Use extra caution with "high-risk pregnancies" - hypoxia, diabetes, mental health patients who go off meds, prior miscarriage, or anything else that the docs consider high-risk.

Otherwise, its probably just a polygraph.

We do have a way of dramatizing things, which is a good idea if it serves our interrogation objectives, but probably not all that useful outside of that.

r

------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)

posted 01-02-2007 07:56 PM         

We all just got a rnelson "sucker punch"- OUCH!

I will be posting several charts tomorrow and I want you all to guess which are male or female, and left or right handed subjects.

Extra credit will be given if you can correctly identify each of their eye colors as well.

I think Ray has proven beyond all reasonable doubt that the polygraph should not be used to determine pregnancy. All those OB/GYN employees will be thrilled when this study is published!

Just to be safe, I am going to request that all female examinees go into the bathroom and pee on a stick prior to testing. I will also post a sign in the bathroom that reads "If the stick turns blue-no test for you"

Ray, is the trip to Denver still up for grabs?

Ted (AKA: BZZT !)

posted 01-02-2007 09:54 PM            

I've scheduled your flight and reservation at Hotel DIA for our next blizzard.

r

------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)

posted 01-02-2007 10:07 PM         

I AM THERE ! I will be wearing my flip/flops and my Speedo Swimsuit!

Happy New Year to all of you GREAT guys!

See you in New Mexico for AAPP.